'How to end corruption in Nigeria' - Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala speaks with CNN
Minister for Finance and Coordinator of the
Economy Ngozi Okonjo Iweala was a guest on
CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS programme on Sunday
where she acknowledged that there was
corruption in Nigeria but said that the fight
against corruption must involve every Nigerian...
"No one can fight corruption for Nigerians except
Nigerians. Everyone has to be committed from
the top to the bottom to fight it. In our country,
we need to, coupled with – by all means pursue
those who are corrupt, punish them, you know,
make sure there's no impunity. But that has to
be coupled with something which doesn't get as
much attention, which is building institutions.
It's unglamorous; it's work that takes time, but
we have to do it. We have to put it in place." she
said.
The Minister was also taken up by the presenter
on Sanusi's suspension. He asked her why Sanusi
was suspended after he discovered that monies
had been siphoned from the NNPC account of
which the Minister responded that Sanusi did not
say monies were siphoned, he said money was
unaccounted for. Full text of the Interview after
the cut...
ZAKARIA: Listen in to our conversation. I began
by asking her why the central banker was
suspended for blowing the whistle.
NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA, NIGERIAN FINANCE
MINISTER: I believe that when you find
problems, you should also find solutions. I think
the problem began the first time when he said
that the amount that was – he never said it was
stolen. He said it was unaccounted for, was $
49.8 billion.
And he wrote a letter to the president; he called
me a couple of days after, to say I've written this
letter. And my first reaction was, that's not
possible. We couldn't be missing $50 billion as
finance minister in this country. We wouldn't be
able to function because that's too high a hit.
Everybody would know it and feel it in the
economy.
ZAKARIA: There is some substantial gap.
OKONJO-IWEALA: Oh, yes –
ZAKARIA: Right? I mean –
OKONJO-IWEALA: No, we –
ZAKARIA: – the World Bank, I think when you
were one of the managing directors, issued a
report on the Nigerian economy in which it said
hundreds of billions of dollars over the past 30 or
40 years have been siphoned off. And so this
would be a perfect example of precisely this kind
of siphoning off.
OKONJO-IWEALA: No. I think we should hold
our horses a little bit. Sanusi please ask him
never said the money had been siphoned off. He
said it was unaccounted for.
And hold on. There's a difference, because when
he alleged $49.8 billion – and this was looked at,
it was found that some of that money had really
been remitted to the tax agency directly and his
people were not aware of it.
So $16 billion was immediately accounted for
that, you know, they didn't seem to know the
accounting mode of the agency, so that's what
I'm saying.
But there has been – there's no doubt that
Nigerians feel suspicious of the oil sector, that it
has been regarded as opaque over the years and
this is not an issue, you know, whether it's $10.8
billion, whether it's $1, you know, we can't afford
to lose any money from the treasury.
ZAKARIA: But then why fire the central banker,
a respected central banker?
OKOJO-IWEALA: You know, Fareed, what I
would like to do is perhaps focus on the economy,
because I don't think I want to get into this issue
of firing/not firing. He's still governor of the
central bank. He has been suspended. He hasn't
been fired.
But I think we need to focus on the central issue,
which is no one dollar should be lost from the
treasury. Any money that belongs to it must be
remitted. That's what we're insisting.
And the president, we pushed for – he has
ordered one yesterday, that there should be a
forensic audit to determine where these moneys,
that what is unaccounted for, is it the $10.8
billion that we are saying from the accounts?
We've been working on this for two years.
And you know, is it $50 billion? Is it $20 billion?
Is it $12 billion? What is the amount? We need
to know for the sake of the Nigerian people and
he has ordered that. So we want it to be
independent; we want it to be well done, so that
we can lay it to rest.
ZAKARIA: So how do we – how do you solve the
problem of corruption?
You've been in government twice. You have a
reputation for being extremely honest.
What would you do, if you had a magic wand, if
you were president, what would you do to get
Nigeria to get this cancer out of its system?
OKOJO-IWEALA: Well, you know, Fareed, you
know with that, there are no easy answers. But
there's one thing I want to say and repeat. No
one can fight corruption for Nigerians except
Nigerians. Everyone has to be committed from
the top to the bottom to fight it.
And I think there are two key things that need to
be done all along, and it's not just in Nigeria. It's
in many developing countries that you need to do
this.
But in our country, you need to, coupled with –
by all means pursue those who are corrupt,
punish them, you know, make sure there's no
impunity. But that has to be coupled with
something which doesn't get as much attention,
which is building institutions. It's unglamorous;
it's work that takes time, but we have to do it.
We have to put it in place.
ZAKARIA: I have to ask you a question that is
not part of directly your portfolio, but it is your
government.
Nigeria has always had laws banning
homosexuality. But you advanced a further law
which criminalized it so that somebody who is gay
would have to spend 14 years in prison.
You also have passed – the law says that people
who are in some way promoting gay clubs or gay
discussion would be imprisoned for 10 years. This
seems an assault on a minority's rights. It also
seems an assault on free speech.
Why is Nigeria doing this?
OKOJO-IWEALA: Well, let me say this, Fareed,
that, you know, we're here in the U.S. And it
took 40 to 50 years or more under conversation
of, you know, the gay community to get where
the U.S. is.
I think that, you know, we need a conversation in
the country. We need evolution. Ninety-six
percent of people support these laws, but I think
we need to unpack the laws, for them to see, you
know, between being a gay person and between
same-sex marriage because the two are
compounded in people's minds and there's a
strong sentiment against same-sex marriage, just
as you had here before.
And it's still evolving. I think it's a question of
conversation, discussion, evolution, education
and engagement over time, just as happened in
this country and in Europe. It's not something
that happened overnight. So I would say
withhold judgment and let us work on this.
ZAKARIA: Madam Finance Minister, pleasure to
have you on.
OKOJO-IWEALA: Thank you.
ZAKARIA: And we will be back.
End.
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
Economy Ngozi Okonjo Iweala was a guest on
CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS programme on Sunday
where she acknowledged that there was
corruption in Nigeria but said that the fight
against corruption must involve every Nigerian...
"No one can fight corruption for Nigerians except
Nigerians. Everyone has to be committed from
the top to the bottom to fight it. In our country,
we need to, coupled with – by all means pursue
those who are corrupt, punish them, you know,
make sure there's no impunity. But that has to
be coupled with something which doesn't get as
much attention, which is building institutions.
It's unglamorous; it's work that takes time, but
we have to do it. We have to put it in place." she
said.
The Minister was also taken up by the presenter
on Sanusi's suspension. He asked her why Sanusi
was suspended after he discovered that monies
had been siphoned from the NNPC account of
which the Minister responded that Sanusi did not
say monies were siphoned, he said money was
unaccounted for. Full text of the Interview after
the cut...
ZAKARIA: Listen in to our conversation. I began
by asking her why the central banker was
suspended for blowing the whistle.
NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA, NIGERIAN FINANCE
MINISTER: I believe that when you find
problems, you should also find solutions. I think
the problem began the first time when he said
that the amount that was – he never said it was
stolen. He said it was unaccounted for, was $
49.8 billion.
And he wrote a letter to the president; he called
me a couple of days after, to say I've written this
letter. And my first reaction was, that's not
possible. We couldn't be missing $50 billion as
finance minister in this country. We wouldn't be
able to function because that's too high a hit.
Everybody would know it and feel it in the
economy.
ZAKARIA: There is some substantial gap.
OKONJO-IWEALA: Oh, yes –
ZAKARIA: Right? I mean –
OKONJO-IWEALA: No, we –
ZAKARIA: – the World Bank, I think when you
were one of the managing directors, issued a
report on the Nigerian economy in which it said
hundreds of billions of dollars over the past 30 or
40 years have been siphoned off. And so this
would be a perfect example of precisely this kind
of siphoning off.
OKONJO-IWEALA: No. I think we should hold
our horses a little bit. Sanusi please ask him
never said the money had been siphoned off. He
said it was unaccounted for.
And hold on. There's a difference, because when
he alleged $49.8 billion – and this was looked at,
it was found that some of that money had really
been remitted to the tax agency directly and his
people were not aware of it.
So $16 billion was immediately accounted for
that, you know, they didn't seem to know the
accounting mode of the agency, so that's what
I'm saying.
But there has been – there's no doubt that
Nigerians feel suspicious of the oil sector, that it
has been regarded as opaque over the years and
this is not an issue, you know, whether it's $10.8
billion, whether it's $1, you know, we can't afford
to lose any money from the treasury.
ZAKARIA: But then why fire the central banker,
a respected central banker?
OKOJO-IWEALA: You know, Fareed, what I
would like to do is perhaps focus on the economy,
because I don't think I want to get into this issue
of firing/not firing. He's still governor of the
central bank. He has been suspended. He hasn't
been fired.
But I think we need to focus on the central issue,
which is no one dollar should be lost from the
treasury. Any money that belongs to it must be
remitted. That's what we're insisting.
And the president, we pushed for – he has
ordered one yesterday, that there should be a
forensic audit to determine where these moneys,
that what is unaccounted for, is it the $10.8
billion that we are saying from the accounts?
We've been working on this for two years.
And you know, is it $50 billion? Is it $20 billion?
Is it $12 billion? What is the amount? We need
to know for the sake of the Nigerian people and
he has ordered that. So we want it to be
independent; we want it to be well done, so that
we can lay it to rest.
ZAKARIA: So how do we – how do you solve the
problem of corruption?
You've been in government twice. You have a
reputation for being extremely honest.
What would you do, if you had a magic wand, if
you were president, what would you do to get
Nigeria to get this cancer out of its system?
OKOJO-IWEALA: Well, you know, Fareed, you
know with that, there are no easy answers. But
there's one thing I want to say and repeat. No
one can fight corruption for Nigerians except
Nigerians. Everyone has to be committed from
the top to the bottom to fight it.
And I think there are two key things that need to
be done all along, and it's not just in Nigeria. It's
in many developing countries that you need to do
this.
But in our country, you need to, coupled with –
by all means pursue those who are corrupt,
punish them, you know, make sure there's no
impunity. But that has to be coupled with
something which doesn't get as much attention,
which is building institutions. It's unglamorous;
it's work that takes time, but we have to do it.
We have to put it in place.
ZAKARIA: I have to ask you a question that is
not part of directly your portfolio, but it is your
government.
Nigeria has always had laws banning
homosexuality. But you advanced a further law
which criminalized it so that somebody who is gay
would have to spend 14 years in prison.
You also have passed – the law says that people
who are in some way promoting gay clubs or gay
discussion would be imprisoned for 10 years. This
seems an assault on a minority's rights. It also
seems an assault on free speech.
Why is Nigeria doing this?
OKOJO-IWEALA: Well, let me say this, Fareed,
that, you know, we're here in the U.S. And it
took 40 to 50 years or more under conversation
of, you know, the gay community to get where
the U.S. is.
I think that, you know, we need a conversation in
the country. We need evolution. Ninety-six
percent of people support these laws, but I think
we need to unpack the laws, for them to see, you
know, between being a gay person and between
same-sex marriage because the two are
compounded in people's minds and there's a
strong sentiment against same-sex marriage, just
as you had here before.
And it's still evolving. I think it's a question of
conversation, discussion, evolution, education
and engagement over time, just as happened in
this country and in Europe. It's not something
that happened overnight. So I would say
withhold judgment and let us work on this.
ZAKARIA: Madam Finance Minister, pleasure to
have you on.
OKOJO-IWEALA: Thank you.
ZAKARIA: And we will be back.
End.
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
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